U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs
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Didn't really want to stick my head too much into this issue since:
A. I don't live in the US.
B. They're not legal here anyway.
That being said I'm watching the community get torn apart (again) so I guess I'll take it seriously.
Without FM the community dies. It may stick around for a bit as people cling together but let's be real most will migrate away as the prospect of new stuff vanishes and gear gets old.
Sure we've got DIY solutions but it's so niche and barely even there yet. Even the most competently made boards are a longshot for most people and aren't affordable. Lets not brush aside the assumption that DIY boards are any safer. I've seen some of these builds... just saying the hot glued IMU in some ain't filling me with confidence and I can't say they'll fair much better staying legal either.
The CPSC may well outright look at banning the entire mode of transport due to their less than competent understanding of the issue. They assume that a nosedive is a flaw. With that in mind ANY variant of this is likely at risk too. I personally can see EUC's being next and I don't want to see those banned either. Good luck convincing them your DIY board isn't a Onewheel. They want all models banned, they're not looking for exceptions.
We have reasons to want FM to do better, can't say anyone denies that. I don't see this achieving that goal though, it's spiteful at best and counterproductive to the community at worst. You don't have to like them to at least see the CPSC's issue is glaringly incorrect and threatens the rest of the PEV's that aren't exactly any safer.
FM where's my cheque? -
@lia yeah its a tragedy for all. but its not like the cpsc just dropped it out of the blue right? they just had a recall. theyve prob had tons of ppl complaining about the company. its a hammer n nail scenario. i would like to know what happened. what ACTUALLY transpired. Future Motion hasnt tried to make a lot of friends. now they need them! its as plain as day. they should file for chapter 7 or whatever n get rid of bad debt... or stakeholders. its not a blanket ban on the class. just the product. the product they hold a patent for. trotter may still be able to sell. adding a n ankle leash may appease them. but there was a discussion between FM n the CPSC, but all ive heard here is conjecture about what happened or will happen. ive yet to talk to anyone that admits to being from FM. its a mysteriously penned up company. why? i hate it but im not gonna stick my head out for them without good reason, n even if i did, thats not how the wheels of power work. not here at least. be grateful for that. institutions are not wielded privately. cpsc has a reason for it. i want to know what it is. who it comes from... thats the test i suppose.
XR's got what plants crave!
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@NotSure They claim to have been in discussion with FM requesting some sort of recall but no specific part assuming they don't literally mean recall every board in existence.
It seems pretty clear from the CPSC statement their issue with the Onewheel is simply the nosedive. "The product failed to balance the rider or suddenly stopped while in motion". If they have any other concerns I'd expect them to list them especially if it's an actual hardware fault. The date range they gave for the deaths precede the GT footpad issue and other than edge cases there wasn't rampant board failure so it's not filling me with confidence there is a specific fault they take issue with if there even is one.
This could explain why FM went into oddly specific detail on what causes a nosedive in a recent video on pushback. I say odd because some of the graphics looked hella rushed.
If we are to take the CPSC at their word and they are looking to ban Onewheels from FM because of the nosedive, something we all know is an inescapable fact of self balancing vehicles, then I can only imagine what happens when they deal with reports of EUCs which are way more capable and as a result a lot more lethal when you reach their limits. My country for a time even wanted to ban eBikes entirely for safety concerns. Nothing is safe from the "you might get hurt" police.
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@lia i think lack of redundancy is an issue. no leash or dead man. the design even might be an issue. no fangs. they didnt respond to user feedback for years. n the motor cutting out is an issue without physical brakes... so the issues are mounting. add some stock sonny sliders n its a scooter. the handsfree aspect is the key differentiator. gotta get ahead of that. compare it to horses or something.
XR's got what plants crave!
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@lia said in U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs:
We have reasons to want FM to do better, can't say anyone denies that. I don't see this achieving that goal though, it's spiteful at best and counterproductive to the community at worst. You don't have to like them to at least see the CPSC's issue is glaringly incorrect and threatens the rest of the PEV's that aren't exactly any safer.
yeah, this. be careful what you wish for, because if they ban OWs and then all PEVs because of this, we're all gonna be sad.
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@notsure All applies to the EUC too and none was listed in their statement, these will apply to other platforms if we even entertain this nonesense from the CPSC. They only mentioned the deaths due to the board cutting out so a deadmans switch, leash etc isn't part of their issue.
Regardless I don't think what they're claiming is reasonable by any stretch of the imagination.
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seems poignant...
https://youtu.be/MM62wjLrgmA?t=310 -
Hi Onewheelers! My unflattering story about this is under the spoiler:
Hi Onewheelers! My unflattering story: One of Ruth Anne’s brothers, a commercial airline pilot, forwarded to Ruth Anne the Consumer Product Safety Commission’s news release recommending, among other things, the immediate abandonment of Onewheel riding. That that pertinent news would slip past her notice had been my hope. Ruth Anne’s nephew, adult son of the airline pilot brother who alerted Ruth Anne, also has owned or had owned and ridden a Onewheel Plus — happily, I think. Anyway, Ruth Anne then yesterday wrote a very long, pointed, frustrated email letter to ALL immediate family members about my misguided dedication. Poking, too, about the insanity of my lately renewed interest in motorcycles.An interesting fact that she did not include with her letter to all family is that after my knocked-out concussion from a Onewheel fall last December Ruth Anne had pressed me to give up Onewheel riding for my health and well-being. At that time I figured fair is fair, so I gently proposed that for her health and well-being, as obese as she currently is, that she, over time and measurably, lose weight in return. We have the method — a whole food, plant-based diet that I have been following for more than four years and which allowed me to lose thirty pounds and keep it off — that, and activities like dancing, walking, and riding bicycles! Ruth Anne absolutely and steadfastly refused, saying more than once that she would rather die than change her eating habits. “Ruth Anne!” I told her, “It’s not just the death; it’s the suffering and disability that goes along with it!”
So, with the snow the past two days I have not ridden. In past years, though, I have Onewheeled through impressively, truly deep snow when the only tracks on the Greenway were from unseen cross-country skiers and a few wild animals. Of those seasons I have posted photos here, and on the Cleveland Onewheel Riders Facebook page, videos, too.
In my experienced opinion, with riding an average of more than sixteen miles each day of all seasons for more than four years running on Onewheels (25,410 Onewheel miles logged divided by 1570 possible days), the Consumer Product Safety Commission assumption is that these “ejections” happen randomly is flat-out incorrect.
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@s-leon i recently lost my stepfather to complications stemming from diabetes. they had just returned from a trip to Europe for a month. we had the chance to go too... but we didnt... diet is important. periodic fasting has benefits too imo. im the trimmest ive ever been.
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so i think the used sales community is gonna have a harder time with it than Future Motion.
FM will come out with a new Onewheel. It will have a leash and a siren and seatbelts or whatever else the CPSC hammered them on privately. It will be a higher voltage XR with less hassle and more features. It'll prob be really popular tbh.
If ur not a fan of the GT or the direction it represented, then I think this might be a good thing. Might get a less hostile, more collaborative FM. I suppose we'll see.
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I've been quiet because I don't know anything about this agency or the consequences of what they're doing. With that said, consumers won't see a ban but FM could if they don't change something about the product. What that something is remains a mystery. Better yet, they could win the case and continue business as usual.
As it seems right now, since the agency isn't citing anything specific, they are just blowing smoke. Physics can't be changed so I don't see much of a case. We'll have to wait and see.
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@blkdout said in U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs:
Better yet, they could win the case and continue business as usual.
I disagree that biz as usual would be better. I've been riding since 2017 on my first board, a +. After a major nosedive around 600 miles, I emailed them and posted on their forum that a user settable speed alert would be a really good safety feature (and I've seen this request many times over the years). Many other folks have offered excellent suggestions to improve the safety of their boards, all falling on deaf ears.
To me, better yet is for FM to start concentrating on safety rather than locking down their intellectual property. Perhaps this will give them the kick they need to change their priorities.
GT-S > GT > Pint X > XR > +
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@onedangt Can't disagree with focusing on the customer experience and furthering education about the limitations. I have always disagreed with the sales pitch that "Anyone can do it!". Adding an audible alert could be just the solution needed.
By "business as usual" though I meant it would be better than them being banned from making Onewheels. I see it wasn't clear and even confused myself lol.
With that said, I grew up skateboarding and you just kind of know when you're approaching danger. No safety bells and whistles needed. The Onewheel has been no exception in my experience. Watching people accelerate these things into oblivion and ride way outside their skillset makes me more upset than it should. The government is already coming for another hobby of mine because of irresponsible users and I'm kind of shellshocked it's happening again with this.
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@onedangt said in U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs:
I disagree that biz as usual would be better.
Someone (confucius?) once said 'wisdom is attained in three ways: imitation, reflection, and experience.'
Imitation is easiest. A wise person did it, so to will I. Wisdom by proxy.
Reflection is most noble. You endeavor to consider your actions prudently and are thusly rewarded should you do so well.
Experience is most bitter. You learn by consequence. You burn your hand, you stub your toe...
Whereas imitation is easy, the wisdom it provides lacks the nobility of reflection. Whereas the nobility of reflection is admirable and may result in good prudence, you have not the guarantee of imitation or judgment from experience. And as for experience: you may learn well the lessons of time... But there will be a price exacted for it! That price may be steep and accumulate should one fail to learn 'fast enough'... failure can be unrelenting.
Everyone kinda knows my opinions. Too much perhaps lol...
Business people come in many flavors. Some are wiser than others. u can be dumb as a brick, but still end up an executive! A little "Shut up n do what you're told" can take you far in life... Question is where you end up isnt it???
That's why some flocks need shepherds.
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I filled out the form finally. Basically asked them to reconsider their stance. Personal risk assessment is personal, don't go after a community for the actions of a few, etc.. I didn't write a novel, just wanted to be another voice.
I also mentioned that I think a lot of complaints were made in bad faith. Future Motion hasn't made a lot of friends over the years and people are angry. I get that and know some complaints are legit, (guarantee some are not) but the whole random "ejection" thing bothers me. Might as well ban pebbles and cracks in the road because those have randomly "ejected" me off a skateboard way, way more often.
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Interesting Reddit post here showing an email thread with the CSPC. Seems I was not too far off saying FM really needs to concentrate some efforts on safety improvements.
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@onedangt I came here to post this very same link. I think this is a pretty interesting exchange. A full product recall is something FM probably can't afford. While I would never be interested in using Fangs and think they could make things worse in some cases, I do appreciate the concrete, informed example.
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Thanks for posting that. I've been less active on reddit lately.
I didn't read any comments but that response was fantastic IMO. Fangs is a no-go for me, in fact, I would argue BANGS are safer for my use but this part, "What if they asked the firm to upgrade software to cause the device to slow down when a pushback was initiated during a state of X% battery depletion?" stood out to me the most. It sounds like an active governor which many have argued against but I never really understood why. I use governors on some of my electronics and others I choose not to. It occurs to me we should have that option for anything that spins.
Alas, the confidentiality remains so we can only speculate. They may have asked for something completely reasonable or maybe not. We don't know who's playing hardball really. Glad to know the agency isn't comprised of complete nit wits though.
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@blkdout said in U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs:
It sounds like an active governor which many have argued against
Physics makes an iron clad argument against a governor. If the wheel slows down, you nosedive . . . it's a fact for all one wheeled devices. Think about it, if you're leaning forward to go faster and the wheel slows down, which direction will you go?
GT-S > GT > Pint X > XR > +
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@onedangt Right but governors can be tuned. The sensor(s) are there for a soft start and to avoid motor cogging. Why can't they be used to tune a soft stop, or in this case, a soft slow? Motor braking doesn't have to be abrupt.
Edit: More specifically, ESC's for cars and helicopters are all capable of how hard the motor stops and starts. With helicopters I can even tune how the motor reacts with the load I give it. If I want to punch 13 degrees of pitch, full throttle, I can tell the motor how to react without bogging down. On the other side of that, if I want to tell the motor to stop turning completely, I can tune for how slow it comes to a stop or even change the top speed entirely.
Could be very wrong but I'm not entirely convinced a Onewheel motor can't be tuned in the same way.
