U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs
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Hi Onewheelers! My unflattering story about this is under the spoiler:
Hi Onewheelers! My unflattering story: One of Ruth Anne’s brothers, a commercial airline pilot, forwarded to Ruth Anne the Consumer Product Safety Commission’s news release recommending, among other things, the immediate abandonment of Onewheel riding. That that pertinent news would slip past her notice had been my hope. Ruth Anne’s nephew, adult son of the airline pilot brother who alerted Ruth Anne, also has owned or had owned and ridden a Onewheel Plus — happily, I think. Anyway, Ruth Anne then yesterday wrote a very long, pointed, frustrated email letter to ALL immediate family members about my misguided dedication. Poking, too, about the insanity of my lately renewed interest in motorcycles.An interesting fact that she did not include with her letter to all family is that after my knocked-out concussion from a Onewheel fall last December Ruth Anne had pressed me to give up Onewheel riding for my health and well-being. At that time I figured fair is fair, so I gently proposed that for her health and well-being, as obese as she currently is, that she, over time and measurably, lose weight in return. We have the method — a whole food, plant-based diet that I have been following for more than four years and which allowed me to lose thirty pounds and keep it off — that, and activities like dancing, walking, and riding bicycles! Ruth Anne absolutely and steadfastly refused, saying more than once that she would rather die than change her eating habits. “Ruth Anne!” I told her, “It’s not just the death; it’s the suffering and disability that goes along with it!”
So, with the snow the past two days I have not ridden. In past years, though, I have Onewheeled through impressively, truly deep snow when the only tracks on the Greenway were from unseen cross-country skiers and a few wild animals. Of those seasons I have posted photos here, and on the Cleveland Onewheel Riders Facebook page, videos, too.
In my experienced opinion, with riding an average of more than sixteen miles each day of all seasons for more than four years running on Onewheels (25,410 Onewheel miles logged divided by 1570 possible days), the Consumer Product Safety Commission assumption is that these “ejections” happen randomly is flat-out incorrect.
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@s-leon i recently lost my stepfather to complications stemming from diabetes. they had just returned from a trip to Europe for a month. we had the chance to go too... but we didnt... diet is important. periodic fasting has benefits too imo. im the trimmest ive ever been.
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so i think the used sales community is gonna have a harder time with it than Future Motion.
FM will come out with a new Onewheel. It will have a leash and a siren and seatbelts or whatever else the CPSC hammered them on privately. It will be a higher voltage XR with less hassle and more features. It'll prob be really popular tbh.
If ur not a fan of the GT or the direction it represented, then I think this might be a good thing. Might get a less hostile, more collaborative FM. I suppose we'll see.
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I've been quiet because I don't know anything about this agency or the consequences of what they're doing. With that said, consumers won't see a ban but FM could if they don't change something about the product. What that something is remains a mystery. Better yet, they could win the case and continue business as usual.
As it seems right now, since the agency isn't citing anything specific, they are just blowing smoke. Physics can't be changed so I don't see much of a case. We'll have to wait and see.
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@blkdout said in U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs:
Better yet, they could win the case and continue business as usual.
I disagree that biz as usual would be better. I've been riding since 2017 on my first board, a +. After a major nosedive around 600 miles, I emailed them and posted on their forum that a user settable speed alert would be a really good safety feature (and I've seen this request many times over the years). Many other folks have offered excellent suggestions to improve the safety of their boards, all falling on deaf ears.
To me, better yet is for FM to start concentrating on safety rather than locking down their intellectual property. Perhaps this will give them the kick they need to change their priorities.
GT-S > GT > Pint X > XR > +
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@onedangt Can't disagree with focusing on the customer experience and furthering education about the limitations. I have always disagreed with the sales pitch that "Anyone can do it!". Adding an audible alert could be just the solution needed.
By "business as usual" though I meant it would be better than them being banned from making Onewheels. I see it wasn't clear and even confused myself lol.
With that said, I grew up skateboarding and you just kind of know when you're approaching danger. No safety bells and whistles needed. The Onewheel has been no exception in my experience. Watching people accelerate these things into oblivion and ride way outside their skillset makes me more upset than it should. The government is already coming for another hobby of mine because of irresponsible users and I'm kind of shellshocked it's happening again with this.
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@onedangt said in U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs:
I disagree that biz as usual would be better.
Someone (confucius?) once said 'wisdom is attained in three ways: imitation, reflection, and experience.'
Imitation is easiest. A wise person did it, so to will I. Wisdom by proxy.
Reflection is most noble. You endeavor to consider your actions prudently and are thusly rewarded should you do so well.
Experience is most bitter. You learn by consequence. You burn your hand, you stub your toe...
Whereas imitation is easy, the wisdom it provides lacks the nobility of reflection. Whereas the nobility of reflection is admirable and may result in good prudence, you have not the guarantee of imitation or judgment from experience. And as for experience: you may learn well the lessons of time... But there will be a price exacted for it! That price may be steep and accumulate should one fail to learn 'fast enough'... failure can be unrelenting.
Everyone kinda knows my opinions. Too much perhaps lol...
Business people come in many flavors. Some are wiser than others. u can be dumb as a brick, but still end up an executive! A little "Shut up n do what you're told" can take you far in life... Question is where you end up isnt it???
That's why some flocks need shepherds.
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I filled out the form finally. Basically asked them to reconsider their stance. Personal risk assessment is personal, don't go after a community for the actions of a few, etc.. I didn't write a novel, just wanted to be another voice.
I also mentioned that I think a lot of complaints were made in bad faith. Future Motion hasn't made a lot of friends over the years and people are angry. I get that and know some complaints are legit, (guarantee some are not) but the whole random "ejection" thing bothers me. Might as well ban pebbles and cracks in the road because those have randomly "ejected" me off a skateboard way, way more often.
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Interesting Reddit post here showing an email thread with the CSPC. Seems I was not too far off saying FM really needs to concentrate some efforts on safety improvements.
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@onedangt I came here to post this very same link. I think this is a pretty interesting exchange. A full product recall is something FM probably can't afford. While I would never be interested in using Fangs and think they could make things worse in some cases, I do appreciate the concrete, informed example.
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Thanks for posting that. I've been less active on reddit lately.
I didn't read any comments but that response was fantastic IMO. Fangs is a no-go for me, in fact, I would argue BANGS are safer for my use but this part, "What if they asked the firm to upgrade software to cause the device to slow down when a pushback was initiated during a state of X% battery depletion?" stood out to me the most. It sounds like an active governor which many have argued against but I never really understood why. I use governors on some of my electronics and others I choose not to. It occurs to me we should have that option for anything that spins.
Alas, the confidentiality remains so we can only speculate. They may have asked for something completely reasonable or maybe not. We don't know who's playing hardball really. Glad to know the agency isn't comprised of complete nit wits though.
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@blkdout said in U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs:
It sounds like an active governor which many have argued against
Physics makes an iron clad argument against a governor. If the wheel slows down, you nosedive . . . it's a fact for all one wheeled devices. Think about it, if you're leaning forward to go faster and the wheel slows down, which direction will you go?
GT-S > GT > Pint X > XR > +
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@onedangt Right but governors can be tuned. The sensor(s) are there for a soft start and to avoid motor cogging. Why can't they be used to tune a soft stop, or in this case, a soft slow? Motor braking doesn't have to be abrupt.
Edit: More specifically, ESC's for cars and helicopters are all capable of how hard the motor stops and starts. With helicopters I can even tune how the motor reacts with the load I give it. If I want to punch 13 degrees of pitch, full throttle, I can tell the motor how to react without bogging down. On the other side of that, if I want to tell the motor to stop turning completely, I can tune for how slow it comes to a stop or even change the top speed entirely.
Could be very wrong but I'm not entirely convinced a Onewheel motor can't be tuned in the same way.
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@blkdout You really can't compare a one wheel balanced device with a car, helicopter, bicycle, skateboard or any other vehicle that doesn't depend on balancing against gravity. Segways, EUCs, and OWs all depend on the center of gravity staying directly above the wheel. Even the slightest slowing down of the motor wheel disrupts that balance and, unless the rider alters that center of gravity, well, gravity will win.
Pushback is the only arrow in the OW's quiver and all that does is try to tell the rider that the board wants you to slow down. If you don't listen, well, the results are obvious.
@S-Leon uses a device called a BadgerSense LED strip that monitors the battery's ability to provide torque to the motor. This can also tell you when you're getting closer to overpowering the battery/motor, but it also can't make you slow down.
Anyway, if you can figure out a way to slow down the motor on a one wheeled device without tossing the rider off the front, you should immediately contact FM for a job! :)
GT-S > GT > Pint X > XR > +
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@onedangt ^^ Exactly why I've always advocated for more battery power. People want range though lol.
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@blkdout I'll take more of both please!
GT-S > GT > Pint X > XR > +
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@onedangt The day FM announces more safety I guarantee it comes with less range.
Edit: and/or less top speed lol.
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@onedangt said in U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs:
Anyway, if you can figure out a way to slow down the motor on a one wheeled device without tossing the rider off the front, you should immediately contact FM for a job! :)
lol... last time i 'helped' them, i got sassed, mocked, n ultimately cast aside... think they regret it yet?
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@onedangt this is incorrect. its a two-body problem. in fact i already mentioned how to tackle this elsewhere. surprisingly low engagement in there btw? lots of 'we thought of that' n 'u cant because'... hows the vesc workin b!!?
alright. ill clariify. these are not novel problems. none of them.
if you have a motor in one machine, and a motor in another, and both of those motors operate under the same principles, you can effectively map any possible outcome of one system to a similar outcome on the other.
means i can infer with almost zero intimate knowledge of the hardware itself beyond its global parameters that one motor controller software can EMULATE another given the same capability.
all one has to do is start mapping variables. 1=3, 7=8, 3=12... u can eventually map every possible combination and literally graph it!
in other words, as onewheel motor control algorithm has a particular 'shape' that differs when compared to a very different application like a condenser motor control algorithm.
in other words, when vesc.mann started 'mapping' controller variables manually, one by one, he was simply tracing out the shape of a onewheel motor controller....
well done mr. vesc.mann... hannes. id offer him a mountain view but he has his own.
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I think we've moved on from the issue being primarily the nosedive as a whole since there now appears to be some credibility a fault that hasn't been addressed is resulting in a particular type of nosedive. Subject to actual specifics being made we're kinda left waiting now. Thanks @OneDanGT for sharing that reddit post here. @biell get's a gold star too ;)
Since the warning mentioned all models it's hard to assume what this is since each have had a handful of edge case failures but none have a singular and repeated point of failure that I'm at least aware of especially during the time scale that was mentioned in the initial statement.
Guess we'll have sit tight till then
Truth be told since the CPSC seems to have clarified it's not looking to ban the product but also mentioned it's actually pretty hard for them to do so this may actually work out favourable for FM. I mean how many extra people do you think now know this "totally dangerous" electric skateboard exist and now just want one anyway.
