U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs
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Interesting Reddit post here showing an email thread with the CSPC. Seems I was not too far off saying FM really needs to concentrate some efforts on safety improvements.
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@onedangt I came here to post this very same link. I think this is a pretty interesting exchange. A full product recall is something FM probably can't afford. While I would never be interested in using Fangs and think they could make things worse in some cases, I do appreciate the concrete, informed example.
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Thanks for posting that. I've been less active on reddit lately.
I didn't read any comments but that response was fantastic IMO. Fangs is a no-go for me, in fact, I would argue BANGS are safer for my use but this part, "What if they asked the firm to upgrade software to cause the device to slow down when a pushback was initiated during a state of X% battery depletion?" stood out to me the most. It sounds like an active governor which many have argued against but I never really understood why. I use governors on some of my electronics and others I choose not to. It occurs to me we should have that option for anything that spins.
Alas, the confidentiality remains so we can only speculate. They may have asked for something completely reasonable or maybe not. We don't know who's playing hardball really. Glad to know the agency isn't comprised of complete nit wits though.
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@blkdout said in U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs:
It sounds like an active governor which many have argued against
Physics makes an iron clad argument against a governor. If the wheel slows down, you nosedive . . . it's a fact for all one wheeled devices. Think about it, if you're leaning forward to go faster and the wheel slows down, which direction will you go?
GT-S > GT > Pint X > XR > +
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@onedangt Right but governors can be tuned. The sensor(s) are there for a soft start and to avoid motor cogging. Why can't they be used to tune a soft stop, or in this case, a soft slow? Motor braking doesn't have to be abrupt.
Edit: More specifically, ESC's for cars and helicopters are all capable of how hard the motor stops and starts. With helicopters I can even tune how the motor reacts with the load I give it. If I want to punch 13 degrees of pitch, full throttle, I can tell the motor how to react without bogging down. On the other side of that, if I want to tell the motor to stop turning completely, I can tune for how slow it comes to a stop or even change the top speed entirely.
Could be very wrong but I'm not entirely convinced a Onewheel motor can't be tuned in the same way.
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@blkdout You really can't compare a one wheel balanced device with a car, helicopter, bicycle, skateboard or any other vehicle that doesn't depend on balancing against gravity. Segways, EUCs, and OWs all depend on the center of gravity staying directly above the wheel. Even the slightest slowing down of the motor wheel disrupts that balance and, unless the rider alters that center of gravity, well, gravity will win.
Pushback is the only arrow in the OW's quiver and all that does is try to tell the rider that the board wants you to slow down. If you don't listen, well, the results are obvious.
@S-Leon uses a device called a BadgerSense LED strip that monitors the battery's ability to provide torque to the motor. This can also tell you when you're getting closer to overpowering the battery/motor, but it also can't make you slow down.
Anyway, if you can figure out a way to slow down the motor on a one wheeled device without tossing the rider off the front, you should immediately contact FM for a job! :)
GT-S > GT > Pint X > XR > +
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@onedangt ^^ Exactly why I've always advocated for more battery power. People want range though lol.
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@blkdout I'll take more of both please!
GT-S > GT > Pint X > XR > +
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@onedangt The day FM announces more safety I guarantee it comes with less range.
Edit: and/or less top speed lol.
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@onedangt said in U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs:
Anyway, if you can figure out a way to slow down the motor on a one wheeled device without tossing the rider off the front, you should immediately contact FM for a job! :)
lol... last time i 'helped' them, i got sassed, mocked, n ultimately cast aside... think they regret it yet?
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@onedangt this is incorrect. its a two-body problem. in fact i already mentioned how to tackle this elsewhere. surprisingly low engagement in there btw? lots of 'we thought of that' n 'u cant because'... hows the vesc workin b!!?
alright. ill clariify. these are not novel problems. none of them.
if you have a motor in one machine, and a motor in another, and both of those motors operate under the same principles, you can effectively map any possible outcome of one system to a similar outcome on the other.
means i can infer with almost zero intimate knowledge of the hardware itself beyond its global parameters that one motor controller software can EMULATE another given the same capability.
all one has to do is start mapping variables. 1=3, 7=8, 3=12... u can eventually map every possible combination and literally graph it!
in other words, as onewheel motor control algorithm has a particular 'shape' that differs when compared to a very different application like a condenser motor control algorithm.
in other words, when vesc.mann started 'mapping' controller variables manually, one by one, he was simply tracing out the shape of a onewheel motor controller....
well done mr. vesc.mann... hannes. id offer him a mountain view but he has his own.
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I think we've moved on from the issue being primarily the nosedive as a whole since there now appears to be some credibility a fault that hasn't been addressed is resulting in a particular type of nosedive. Subject to actual specifics being made we're kinda left waiting now. Thanks @OneDanGT for sharing that reddit post here. @biell get's a gold star too ;)
Since the warning mentioned all models it's hard to assume what this is since each have had a handful of edge case failures but none have a singular and repeated point of failure that I'm at least aware of especially during the time scale that was mentioned in the initial statement.
Guess we'll have sit tight till then
Truth be told since the CPSC seems to have clarified it's not looking to ban the product but also mentioned it's actually pretty hard for them to do so this may actually work out favourable for FM. I mean how many extra people do you think now know this "totally dangerous" electric skateboard exist and now just want one anyway.
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@lia I agree, I don't think they would/could totally ban the OW. What I worry about is if other parts of the gov ban riding them in public places such as park paths and even public streets and sidewalks. If they can only be ridden on private property, that would kill off my rides completely! Keeping my fingers crossed the CPSC letter doesn't have TOO much influence.
GT-S > GT > Pint X > XR > +
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@onedangt That would suck, not that it'd stop people riding them anyway ;)
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@onedangt it's something ppl should have been focused on frankly. perhaps some representation . if i started a pac (political action committee - a 501c) who would fund it? they dont run on cheese platters lol
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@blkdout The VESC concensus seems to be forming around 18s2p to 20s2p vs 15s3p (CBXR) so I think most people are with you about more power and less range.
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I think it's their service model and perhaps their marketing.
Service model arguably makes people less inclined to repair their boards in a timely or reasonable manner.
That may be why they are only now selling fasteners, supposedly with "more to come" as they recently said.
Perhaps the CPSC wanted them to issue a voluntary recall so users whom may feel they were 'duped' into purchasing one can be made whole.
Just a year ago, they'd gladly tell you to cough up the cash rather than sell you a motor. Now they might have to!
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I don't have time to listen to the discussion but FM has released a video (podcast) of Kyle and Jack discussing this. Embedded below for anyone that wants to listen.
Reddit has already discussed this and picked out some notable points so if you want a TLDR here's a link to that thread. -
So I listened to it, had a dull task to do at work so left this playing. Some key points and timestamps.
- 3:13 FM claim the CPSC hasn't actually specified to them what issue they take with the board other than suggesting the board can just eject the rider. FM has responded saying they cannot replicate issues outside just exceeding the boards potential.
- 4:18 Kyle believes the CPSC do infact take issue with nosediving and not a particular failure of the product, just the physics behind it.
- 8:12 Re-iterated, it seems the CPSC have not identified or at least shared with FM a component or flaw with any of the Onewheel models that they can fix or recall lending credibility to the suggestion the issue is still with just nosediving in general.
- 9:12 Kyle criticises the CPSC for not actually evaluating the product to find a particular point of failure. Instead they have only used reports and incidents to conclude there is a problem.
- 13:52 Kyle confirms there was a back and forth with the CPSC before the publication.
At this point a good chunk of this is mostly discussion on the letters and the importance of safety gear before getting back to the main topic. Not much that adds more to the discussion outside of what has already been said such as how other devices are more dangerous and seemingly have not been publicly called out by the CPSC.
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43:10 Kyle confirms as to their knowledge this is not related to the GT footpad or the recall.
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43:35 FM worked with the CPSC to perform the GT footpad recall and explains that the recall was delayed due to them actually working with the CPSC to make sure they did it right.
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49:12 A flat footpad for the GT is released and mentioned here.
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50:23 They also... FINALLY sell the hub bolts and some other tire changing hardware.
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@lia said in U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs:
50:23 They also... FINALLY sell the hub bolts and some other tire changing hardware.
apparently they 'had' to redesign the fasteners... sure!
machine screws were ass-backwards before them.XR's got what plants crave!
