17 Nov 2022, 07:46
@franko i bet every last dollar they made scrooging is now spent. all that anguish for naught. ppl might galvanize around them after this, but it won't be a clean slate. fool me once...
U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs
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Seems like we should be talking about this!
and here's Future Motion's (and other companies and professional rider's) united response:
https://www.reddit.com/r/onewheel/comments/yx7x2x/fm_response_to_cpsc_note_the_signature_page/
Let us ride!
Sage OG Pint (Battleborn Floater)
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@franko yeah thats a bonbshell. def will hurt sales. my guess chapter 11 is on the table. wish i knew more.
XR's got what plants crave!
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@notsure i wish i knew more too, but it's early days, i guess. i'll keep my eyes peeled and post more if i find out anything. seems really bad of the CPSC to do this. i mean, more people don't die in cars every day!
Sage OG Pint (Battleborn Floater)
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I posted to their webform: https://www.cpsc.gov/About-CPSC/Contact-Information/Contact-Specific-Offices-and-Public-Information/Information-Center
I am extremely dismayed by your recent statement release 23-046 on November 16th, 2022 entitled "Future Motion Refuses to Recall Deadly Onewheel Skateboard" which is factually inaccurate. Future Motion's onewheel devices contain no such ejection capability. A rider who runs into a wall, curb, tree, or other obstacle which stops the forward motion of the board will, it is true, continue their forward motion without the board; however, these listed failures are neither purposeful nor the result of negligent programming. And, the board is hardly ejecting the rider.
All sports carry inherent risk, board sports such as Onewheels are no different. But, the boards do come with hazard warnings far more informative to other board sports (e.g. Skateboards, snowboards, wakeboards, surfboards). The manufacturer of these devices also goes to great lengths to stress proper safety gear (especially helmets). Your notice mentions 4 known fatalities which, while tragic, were the consequence of riders not following Future Motion's recommended safety precautions; precautions so basic that they are required by law in 22 states + DC for children riding bicycles.
In the US, 3.5 people die on average every single day on bicycles. That is ~1,500 bicycle deaths for every every Onewheel death over the last 5 years. While I recognize there are plenty more bicycles than Onewheels, are there really that many more than 1,500 actively ridden bicycles for every actively ridden Onewheel in the US? I remain unconvinced that the death risk of riding a Onewheel is materially greater than that of a bicycle.
We all wish that the GT footpad recall had gone faster and smoother. I do not know if, in your release, you are directly referencing this recall as being unsatisfactory or if you are alluding to a greater wish for all Onewheels to be recalled. I fear from your title that it is the latter. However, that is mostly irrelevant because a full product recall is and was not necessary, and while consumers should continue to be informed about the dangers of single-wheeled personal electric vehicles (PEVs), they should be allowed to purchase and use them as they see fit.
Your attempt to persuade the American public from using Onewheels is entirely disingenuous if it is not combined with a statement of similar urgency and severity for Hoverboards, EUCs, Electric Bicycles, Electric Scooters, Electric Skateboards, Skateboards, Snowboards, Surfboards, Wakeboards, Motorcycles, and all Automobiles. Onewheels are as safe as any PEV can reasonably be, and the idea that the majority of Americans should not be able to enjoy these devices because a tiny percentage of riders fail to follow the well documented limitations which you are so annoyingly required to view before being able to connect your phone to the board is akin to saying all cars must be recalled because some people might drive them after consuming alcohol.
I have a very real gripe with Future Motion regarding my right to repair these devices. And, your statement makes it even harder for them to meet me half way. Their entire argument, capricious as it might be, revolves around their potential bad press from my own possible mistake in making a repair. With the CPSC providing such a statement, disassociated from reality and rational thought, you enforce these arguments within Future Motion, ultimately hurting the consumers you are pledged to protect.
By releasing this statement, you are telling all future potential complainants to keep quite, don't tell the CPSC about issues with your favorite products. They aren't here to help you get things fixed, they just want to take away your favorite thing. "Should I tell the CPSC about the issue with my car? I love my car, they might take it away." "Should I tell the CPSC about the issue with my electric baby rocker? What if they take it away, I might never sleep again." When we alerted you to concerns with Future Motion's products, we thought you were on our side, that you would help us fight the good fight. Apparently, we were wrong.
Furthermore, by releasing to the public such an absurd, baseless argument against the use of Onewheels and massively overstating the risk in a way obvious to even the most casual of observers, you are discrediting your entire agency. This is probably the most egregious error you have made as an organization this year. The CPSC is a critical safeguard for the public and must be trusted ultimately, beyond reproach. In making this claim, you have discredited each and every statement made by your organization this year. The American public has no reason to trust the credibility of anything the CPSC says heretofore.
I urge you to change course and focus on safety through risk education and mitigation, not through elimination. You would have to pry my Onewheels from my cold, dead hands; something about which, I acknowledge is a non-zero chance.
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@biell fm should sue. challenge their claims in court. thats what its for. they got a team of lawyers, n they blew the retainer on suing their friends... comeuppance wouldnt be far off the mark. sketchy wiring, low qc, n poorly investing their resources into gross hardware restrictions. now they need us... ask me nicely... ill write a letter of my own.
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@franko i bet every last dollar they made scrooging is now spent. all that anguish for naught. ppl might galvanize around them after this, but it won't be a clean slate. fool me once...
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@biell -- Wow! Impressive, and right-on-the-mark, reply! Superlative thought and expression! Whole-hearted agreement here, with me!
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@biell i just ran across the form and came to post it here as an update, but you beat me to it. i'll be filling it out today as well, but my response probably won't be as thorough as yours. nicely done!
Sage OG Pint (Battleborn Floater)
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@franko i think this time last year FM's customer service ace was mocking me... job security can do that...
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@franko yeah now that i think about it: i think we deserve an apology. i think i deserve an apology! ppl try to help n they make greedy decision to exploit them in a pincer maneuver... nuh uh. maybe i should write a letter... question: of all the ppl here, who has actually worked in DC? besides me that is...
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shitty ppl exploit decency. they say "this guy plays by the rules, so i think ill try to squeeze them into a corner.. charge them to get out..."
and when they get caught, they start whistling dixie about how theyre sry... about how they had no choice. 'theyre victims too!"...
well? is this different?
THEY SUED THEIR FRIENDS OVER A PITANCE!
they put shitty ppl in charge, who then make shitty decisions, that have shitty consequences... garbage in. garbage out. computer science 101.
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"At least four people have tragically died from traumatic head injuries."
-Richard Trumka
SourceEssentially these 4 weren't wearing appropriate safety gear.
Curiously they include all Onewheels in the statement so it's not like this is just about the GT ghosting issue unless this hasn't been thoroughly looked at by the CPSC.
Edit : I have made my very formal and in depth response to the CPSC. Link :)
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@lia im all about good governance.
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FFM sentiments still hold. FM can grow up, and take the hit for being the company they are; instead of relying on a community to help them, when all they've done is try to oppress them.
BAN THE OW!!! LET FM BURN!!! 🔥⛽️🔥
🤣
"... We've been trying to reach you about abandoning the OW as a platform, and convert to EUCs."
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@samuraipunch lets see if this exorcism works...
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Didn't really want to stick my head too much into this issue since:
A. I don't live in the US.
B. They're not legal here anyway.
That being said I'm watching the community get torn apart (again) so I guess I'll take it seriously.
Without FM the community dies. It may stick around for a bit as people cling together but let's be real most will migrate away as the prospect of new stuff vanishes and gear gets old.
Sure we've got DIY solutions but it's so niche and barely even there yet. Even the most competently made boards are a longshot for most people and aren't affordable. Lets not brush aside the assumption that DIY boards are any safer. I've seen some of these builds... just saying the hot glued IMU in some ain't filling me with confidence and I can't say they'll fair much better staying legal either.
The CPSC may well outright look at banning the entire mode of transport due to their less than competent understanding of the issue. They assume that a nosedive is a flaw. With that in mind ANY variant of this is likely at risk too. I personally can see EUC's being next and I don't want to see those banned either. Good luck convincing them your DIY board isn't a Onewheel. They want all models banned, they're not looking for exceptions.
We have reasons to want FM to do better, can't say anyone denies that. I don't see this achieving that goal though, it's spiteful at best and counterproductive to the community at worst. You don't have to like them to at least see the CPSC's issue is glaringly incorrect and threatens the rest of the PEV's that aren't exactly any safer.
FM where's my cheque? -
@lia yeah its a tragedy for all. but its not like the cpsc just dropped it out of the blue right? they just had a recall. theyve prob had tons of ppl complaining about the company. its a hammer n nail scenario. i would like to know what happened. what ACTUALLY transpired. Future Motion hasnt tried to make a lot of friends. now they need them! its as plain as day. they should file for chapter 7 or whatever n get rid of bad debt... or stakeholders. its not a blanket ban on the class. just the product. the product they hold a patent for. trotter may still be able to sell. adding a n ankle leash may appease them. but there was a discussion between FM n the CPSC, but all ive heard here is conjecture about what happened or will happen. ive yet to talk to anyone that admits to being from FM. its a mysteriously penned up company. why? i hate it but im not gonna stick my head out for them without good reason, n even if i did, thats not how the wheels of power work. not here at least. be grateful for that. institutions are not wielded privately. cpsc has a reason for it. i want to know what it is. who it comes from... thats the test i suppose.
XR's got what plants crave!
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@NotSure They claim to have been in discussion with FM requesting some sort of recall but no specific part assuming they don't literally mean recall every board in existence.
It seems pretty clear from the CPSC statement their issue with the Onewheel is simply the nosedive. "The product failed to balance the rider or suddenly stopped while in motion". If they have any other concerns I'd expect them to list them especially if it's an actual hardware fault. The date range they gave for the deaths precede the GT footpad issue and other than edge cases there wasn't rampant board failure so it's not filling me with confidence there is a specific fault they take issue with if there even is one.
This could explain why FM went into oddly specific detail on what causes a nosedive in a recent video on pushback. I say odd because some of the graphics looked hella rushed.
If we are to take the CPSC at their word and they are looking to ban Onewheels from FM because of the nosedive, something we all know is an inescapable fact of self balancing vehicles, then I can only imagine what happens when they deal with reports of EUCs which are way more capable and as a result a lot more lethal when you reach their limits. My country for a time even wanted to ban eBikes entirely for safety concerns. Nothing is safe from the "you might get hurt" police.
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@lia i think lack of redundancy is an issue. no leash or dead man. the design even might be an issue. no fangs. they didnt respond to user feedback for years. n the motor cutting out is an issue without physical brakes... so the issues are mounting. add some stock sonny sliders n its a scooter. the handsfree aspect is the key differentiator. gotta get ahead of that. compare it to horses or something.
XR's got what plants crave!
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@lia said in U.S. CPSC Statement on the danger of OWs:
We have reasons to want FM to do better, can't say anyone denies that. I don't see this achieving that goal though, it's spiteful at best and counterproductive to the community at worst. You don't have to like them to at least see the CPSC's issue is glaringly incorrect and threatens the rest of the PEV's that aren't exactly any safer.
yeah, this. be careful what you wish for, because if they ban OWs and then all PEVs because of this, we're all gonna be sad.