TFL and FM made a video together!
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@ed_co said in TFL and FM made a video together!:
TFL as well, always like to look good, and having good relationship with FM is very good for them, and makes them look powerful against competition too...
if what's happening is what i suspect is happening, FM and TFL are collaborating on something... lol under what auspices we could only guess, but motivations are assessable. unfortunately im pretty new to the scene, so i don't really know the whole Onewheel timeline of drama. what's the beef?
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@notsure said in TFL and FM made a video together!:
what's the beef?
It's about Right to Repair and FM doing everything in their power to make it hard for TFL and others to make aftermarket parts. From what we understand, the explosion of rage around the GT boards bricking themselves was unexpected by FM and they are rethinking their position, and at least in some small way they have had conversations with TFL, enough for Jeff to say "Lots going on behind the scenes" as well as many other comments.
What is clear from Jeff's comments is that he doesn't know what the final outcome will be. But, what is clear is that he is hopeful about the outcome.
FM has always played an interesting game with TFL. On the one hand, they have to love them and keep them on their side because TFL are essentially gorilla marketing the boards for them. On the other hand, FM doesn't like other people taking money out of their pockets for replacement parts. TFL is aware of this limbo area they live in, and have expanded in a very careful and methodical way, pushing the boundaries slowly to see what FM will allow and what will cause another cease and desist letter.
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@biell said in TFL and FM made a video together!:
TFL is aware of this limbo area they live in, and have expanded in a very careful and methodical way, pushing the boundaries slowly to see what FM will allow and what will cause another cease and desist letter.
so TFL has already had issues with FM resulting in a c&d letter? that's interesting bc i would consider TFL to be the ow brand leader. "brand" is a resource that isn't easily acquired. it takes time n effort. if FM reached out to TFL, it's bc they know that, n likely see the value in the TFL brand. if it was TFL that initiated the collaboration, i think its probably close to what @ed_co suggested ie TFL trying to strengthen their hand against the rest of the aftermarket.
XR's got what plants crave!
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@notsure said in TFL and FM made a video together!:
so TFL has already had issues with FM resulting in a c&d letter?
That's the thing my mind went back to straight away when this vid dropped. Drop Top Fender looked cool but was yoinked off shelves after it supposedly infringed on one of FM's patents where a similar fender design featured in the onewheel patent.
FM patent (note items 228 and 232)
https://patents.google.com/patent/US9101817B2/en
TFL's Drop Top Fender
It's a cool fender design. Basically a set of deletes extended up where magnets can lock in a complete top section if desired.
I think you're spot on with the brand suggestion. TFL do a lot amongst the community in terms of events so it's not surprising some sort of partnership would occur if FM wants to retain an positive image.
Outside of the usual stans (I guess that includes me) and newcomers FM has a really nasty brand image (probably a better wording for this but my brain is soup this
morningafternoon ...oh god) -
@lia said in TFL and FM made a video together!:
It's a cool fender design. Basically a set of deletes extended up where magnets can lock in a complete top section if desired.
yeah very cool. FM did have a patent, but i haven't seen it ever on their website. surprisingly petty... i wonder what the rest of the discourse was like. im sure tfl would have tried to legitimize the arrangement if possible. so im assuming fm didnt reciprocate... hmm... very curious... if fm reached out to tfl its bc they see value. there's a lot of ppl sitting at their table... design patent is 15 yrs, utility is 20 yrs, trademarks are substantially longer lived. if fm didnt attempt to burnish their brand image, the moment the product turns open source, they lose most of the arrows in their quiver, n a successful brand will walk away with their demo... im really starting to like the complexity of this market. i wonder...
XR's got what plants crave!
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@notsure said in TFL and FM made a video together!:
if fm didnt attempt to burnish their brand image, the moment the product turns open source, they lose most of the arrows in their quiver
True, as far as the product goes just power and tuning really set it apart. I imagine the opensource community will outpace FM before the patent expires. I would like to imagine FM would seek out those within the open source projects and hire them not just for protecting the business but to help advance things.
Just a thought though... if TFL are partnering with FM does that mean we will get the Drop Top fender afterall? Better yet, TFL accessories allowed to be sold by official Onewheel retailers which would give them a leg up over the other 3rd parties. Probably not the whole lineup, I don't see FM being cool with the rails but bumpers, fenders, plates and such sound feasible.
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@lia said in TFL and FM made a video together!:
. I imagine the opensource community will outpace FM before the patent expires.
especially considering how FM's heavy handed tactics are more likely to chase talent towards the competition.
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@lia said in TFL and FM made a video together!:
Just a thought though... if TFL are partnering with FM does that mean we will get the Drop Top fender afterall?
i imagine its we get more of a ceasefire, followed by treaty. the GT hub is... in need of life savers. if tfl patented those, then FM is now at the end of the muzzle lol... but i would hope FM realizes the new tire n hub, unless absolutely necessary for current or future product development, was a misstep, if not a mistake. if they lock down the entire product into a very successful profit scheme, it won't be the float life breathing down their necks... it will be honda! sometimes ambition isn't a good thing.
if i were FM i would fill the niche across the spectrum. i would make a cheap onewheel, a less cheap onewheel, and an expensive onewheel. cheap onewheel is cheap. but not as cheap as the knockoff... which of course i also produce and market...
thats right. id sell my own dirt cheap onewheel that does the basics just well enough so as to not provide any incentive for my competitors. as the market develops, i acquire the aftermarket's top performers. small extensible power system, third world shell company, the works! shed as much liability as i can. THEN I risk the brand on the more expensive top of the line models. like mother fuckin microsoft!
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I have often felt that FM missed an opportunity with TFL. After float plates dropped, if I were running FM, I would have approached Jeff and offered him a job so that I could control the innovation. TFL could have been to Onewheel what TRD is to Toyota or AMG is to Mercedes. FM could have let Jeff innovate and increased the prices on all his work. The offset in price increase would have mostly compensated for the lost revenue from home repairs, and that lost revenue would have been offset by a happier customer base.
From my perspective, FM totally missed the boat, and instead Jeff docked the boat at multiple ports of call, picking up CNR, FlightFins, Chi, et al on the way. Now, having completely lost control, we see the massively reactionary measures FM is resorting to with controller pairing, bricking boards, etc. which is customary from a company afraid of loosing relevance once their patents run out.
At least, that's my 2ยข on the matter.
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@biell said in TFL and FM made a video together!:
TFL could have been to Onewheel what TRD is to Toyota or AMG is to Mercedes. FM could have let Jeff innovate and increased the prices on all his work. The offset in price increase would have mostly compensated for the lost revenue from home repairs, and that lost revenue would have been offset by a happier customer base.
thats an apt comparison. i agree. i have opinions on their profit schemes as well... its frustrating to watch tbh. such a great product.
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Great discussion! Thoughtful, enlightening, and educational! Great thread!
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Absolutely pure speculation... but is FM looking for a new CEO?
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@s-leon said in TFL and FM made a video together!:
Absolutely pure speculation... but is FM looking for a new CEO?
what is the basis for that speculation, though? because FM and TFL are talking behind the scenes?
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@s-leon It's nice to have these positive discussions about the company. Thoroughly enjoy it myself :)
but is FM looking for a new CEO
Hmmm hadn't thought of this. Not sure if it would be anything to do with TFL but having a company like FM with a product that's as cool if not more than it looks you'd expect Kyle to be up front and centre showing it off, especially since it's his creation (as the product stands, not the invention necessarily).
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Watching Jeff's video proposal to Future Motion left me unsatisfied. My heart instead is with those who change bearings, change tires, waterproof boards, extend ranges, and figure out how to repair board errors! I am very glad I have two easily modified Pluses I ride and have ridden for thousands of miles. And I am looking forward to keep improving my Pluses in ways that matter most to me -- as I lay in bed now, bored, healing from clavicle surgery.
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@s-leon I didn't know you were hurt, spring and summer is coming . Get well soon!
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@s-leon I was a little underwhelmed too. But, it is progress. I look at it like this. I change my own bearings. I have never caused damage to the hall sensors. But, what if I did? At least, I could drive my board to somewhere in Philly or Jersey and get a new motor for a reasonable price. That enables me to perform my own maintenance, because if I mess up, I at least can get a reasonable replacement.
The biggest issue I see is that Onewheels are not sold on a commodity based pricing model, they are sold on a capability based pricing model. I don't believe it costs more than $800 to build an XR, and I don't believe it costs $400 more to build a GT than an XR. FM would want to ensure the component pricing model equaled (at least) the bundled price to ensure people don't try to scam buy the parts and build the rest themselves. So, we are talking $150 for the footpads, $55 for the bumpers, $300 for the rails, $550 for the wheel+tire, $700 for the battery box, and $450 for the controller.
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@s-leon Hope the rest is helping you heal up. Wish I had more than just well wishes to give for it.
Jeff's vid for anyone out of the loop
It is a bit sad we have to babystep things to get what the community needs. The current ask would mean XR headlight issues requires an entire new controller for example which is insane D:
Jeff has further stated that the suggestion isn't even what they want but a compromise they're hoping helps more in the community.
In truth it will, those that don't have the skills, tools or confidence to repair their own gear are pretty much boned so this would help them. For us "unqualified" modders and tinkerers it'll be more of the same unfortunately.I'm not sure what "tear down the walls" refers to though. From what I've seen a lot of the repair centred arguments have been pretty sensible unless I've missed anyone demanding pretty outrageous things from FM.
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@lia said in TFL and FM made a video together!:
I'm not sure what "tear down the walls" refers to though.
XR's got what plants crave!
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@notsure I watched this earlier!
It's a good vid, 8:00 and onwards for those not interested in the VESC history and want to see what has been accomplished.The accuracy in behaviour is really good and pretty impressive with just that tiny issue with nose dipping on repetitive bumpy terrain.
